tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2216751897705338056.post6955276310682088590..comments2023-10-17T03:41:01.759-04:00Comments on reflexiones finales: Collapse of Chinese Solarrussell1200http://www.blogger.com/profile/16258915475311426433noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2216751897705338056.post-26718899719084320992012-12-12T08:28:27.440-05:002012-12-12T08:28:27.440-05:00I totally agree with you, thanks for sharing this ...I totally agree with you, thanks for sharing this blog..its really nice to read such articles.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.polarracking.com/h/news" rel="nofollow">Solar Racking Manufacturers</a><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01566563284436980421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2216751897705338056.post-4404972149244224892012-10-29T12:22:34.720-04:002012-10-29T12:22:34.720-04:00Dan. If you are using them as straight up DC sour...Dan. If you are using them as straight up DC sources, 20 years might work. But DC is very limiting and when you go to AC than your electronic components can go much quicker. Capacitors are often given an expectid life of 7 years - although that seems rather short to me.<br /><br />The quick paybacks I have seen (and remember I work in the electrical construction industry) all have invovled a rebate from the utility.<br /><br />Utility rebates can be a legitimate way for the utility to diversify its long term sourcing, but they make the straight up comparisons rather difficult.russell1200https://www.blogger.com/profile/16258915475311426433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2216751897705338056.post-36752724160729573502012-10-29T00:22:50.939-04:002012-10-29T00:22:50.939-04:00Do the Math blog, puts the payback at 3-4 years. S...Do the Math blog, puts the payback at 3-4 years. Since they are rated for 20 or so years they are sustainable. Also I think the 20 year rating doesn't mean they are junk at the end of their service life, just that they have degraded to 80% of their rated capacity. <br /><br />That is similar to my minivan that died last week. It had an expected useful life of 100k miles and 274k on the odometer when it finally died. Furthermore it is still repairable for around $1.5k in parts, it just wouldn't be worth that much after the repairs so it isn't worth it.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04354887108778074009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2216751897705338056.post-6926747726564565362012-10-28T13:23:41.492-04:002012-10-28T13:23:41.492-04:00Sorry, I have had the little one to myself this we...Sorry, I have had the little one to myself this weekend, so I have been offline.<br /><br />John: The solar panels I wouldn't say are "free", but I would agree that most of the cost is front loaded. The degradation depends a lot on how you are using them and to what purpose. If you don't convert the DC power generated power to AC power, you simplify many of the maintenance problems. Unfortunately, DC power doesn't "travel" well, so it is a local only option.<br /><br /><br />Pioneer: Part of the problem with the various input/output equations is that parts of the process are out of our control - for instance how the aluminum framing is produced and shipped to market. And as John notes, there are certain arbitrage situations that are not captured well with the input/output quantification.<br /><br />One of the biggest arbitrage situations that is almost always ignored (and yes I am getting a little off topic) is that electrical grids are always "on", and that the peak usuage is just about as important as the overall usuage. So if you can smooth out your loading, you can save a huge amount of overall energy usuage even if you "use" the same amount power.<br /><br />One of the problems with the alternative sources is that they don't always combine well with peak usuage time frames. You would think solar would, but peak solar tends to precede peak usuage.<br /><br />One point I think that John is making is valid. If you could get yourself a real mania-bubble in installing the solar panels (rather than just making the panels) you would have a whole bunch of relatively inexpensive energy. As with all bubble, the initial investors would take a bath, but that seems to be the common cost to getting a technology into fast heavy useage.russell1200https://www.blogger.com/profile/16258915475311426433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2216751897705338056.post-65631988524261389642012-10-27T11:23:34.160-04:002012-10-27T11:23:34.160-04:00Well what you are really doing John is paying the ...Well what you are really doing John is paying the full price of the electricity up front. The total amount of energy you will get from the panels just costs you more on day one and you don't have to pay again. That is until something breaks I guess.<br /><br />PioneerPreppyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09269878017447335944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2216751897705338056.post-6158804131003681652012-10-26T23:57:14.136-04:002012-10-26T23:57:14.136-04:00Um, PioneerPreppy, as far as I can see, everything...Um, PioneerPreppy, as far as I can see, everything you said applies BEFORE the solar panels are put up, so it appears that you are simply saying YES.<br /><br />Besides, there is the matter of arbitrage. If the energy is put into producing the solar panels when it is cheap but is produced when energy is expensive, it still makes economic sense as a way to ease the descent from peak oil.John D. Wheelerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16203607452410210779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2216751897705338056.post-77830992257875037022012-10-26T14:45:28.205-04:002012-10-26T14:45:28.205-04:00John - Simply put NO. The panels degrade. The actu...John - Simply put NO. The panels degrade. The actual overall cost of the panels and the lifetime output of energy they provide typically ends up costing more per kilowatt than buying it outright. In general as well it has been estimated that the total amount of oil or oil byproducts used to make a panel and everything else that goes with a solar system comes out to much more (as much as 50% more) energy going into solar production than you get back over the average lifespan.<br /><br />I may in fact save money using my little solar back up system but the energy was paid for by someone before me so in the end it is a net energy loser.<br />PioneerPreppyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09269878017447335944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2216751897705338056.post-7115632137249034792012-10-26T13:04:36.612-04:002012-10-26T13:04:36.612-04:00I must admit, I'm confused by your statement -...I must admit, I'm confused by your statement -- once you've put up the solar panels, isn't the electricity generated by them free whenever the sun is shining?John D. Wheelerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16203607452410210779noreply@blogger.com